SUSRIS: How did you come to be in Saudi Arabia?

Frances Meade: We went to Saudi Arabia in 1965 for 18 months and stayed for 33 years. It was to be an 18-month contract for my husband with an architectural and engineering company. They were designing and supervising the construction of the first highways. It sounded like a real adventure, and we were all very excited.

I wasn't sure what I was going to be doing, but it was obvious from everything we had heard, women simply did not lead any kind of public life nor did they go to work. I made up my mind that I was going to spend the 18 months at home. Well, I found out what we heard was wrong. I wasn't there a month before I was tapped to come to work at the international school that was opening that year. The international community numbered slightly over a hundred -- the whole community, not the students. There were only 30 some students when the school opened.

SUSRIS: This was in Riyadh?

Frances Meade: Yes, in Riyadh. I soon heard about Queen Effat, one of the most dynamic Saudi women ever. Her efforts in education and in improving and enhancing the life of girls and women in Saudi Arabia were stunning examples. We discovered we could follow her example and do things that might not have been sanctioned by the Saudi government, but certainly permitted, like the school. It was not sanctioned at the time. Unfortunately, it had to be licensed some years later, and as a result, had to segregate the boys and girls into separate schools.

I have to say that I have never been treated more professionally in my life than by the Ministry of Education, which had never dealt with a woman principal before. I found it to be a rewarding experience -- to know that in Saudi Arabia you are accepted for what your capabilities, your skills and your interests are. And, it was a good introduction that resulted in many long lasting relationships.

SUSRIS: Talk a little about the relationships between Americans and Saudi Arabians, not just professionally but socially as well, during those early years in the Kingdom.

Frances Meade: We were, of course, a very small foreign community, and everyone there was working for some branch of the Saudi government. They had Saudi colleagues with whom they were friendly, and when we were introduced to fellow foreigners, we were also introduced to their Saudi contacts. Suddenly, we had a circle of friends among Saudis that would be awfully hard to achieve now.

Present-day living, exclusive of the fact that there is a dreadful security situation now, doesn't allow for such close contacts. After the boom began in mid-'70s, there were so many people coming into the country, who were essentially banding together in compounds, and they were walling themselves off from the rest of the city. There were people who literally spent a contract term of two or three years in the country and might never have met a Saudi, which is pretty sad. But, I think it's inevitable when you have that kind of influx from a different culture.

When we arrived in 1965, we were a very small group. The Saudi world was open to us. The seclusion in later years among foreigners, among Americans, was self-imposed. I suppose from a purely financial point of view, it's a lot cheaper when you bring in a lot of people to put them in one place and provide services for them than to do as we were all doing, living independently in various areas around the city. But, it does mean that you are withdrawn from everyday Saudi life and culture.

SUSRIS: What would you say were the most remarkable memories from those years before the boom of the 1970s?

Frances Meade: There's no doubt that those of us who were there, and there were probably about 50 to 60 American families, actually total Americans, not families -- we could sit down tomorrow, not having seen each other for the last 40 years and immediately pick up where we left off. There's a bond in being a very small group of people in what was to us a completely alien culture.

You see, little was known about Saudi Arabia in the States in the 1960s. I didn't even know, for example, when Dick said we were going to move to Jeddah -- which was the original plan -- where it was. He just said, "Jeddah," and I automatically started to think, "Somewhere maybe in Yugoslavia?" It didn't mean a thing, nor did it mean anything to the people we told about it.

There is a tremendous difference from then to now, since Saudi Arabia has become a global nexus. The period between was a dramatic change for the people we knew. It was not just the foreigners - ultimately, we were the only ones who remained of that original group -- but also of the Saudis who were our friends.

In fact, their lives changed far more dramatically than ours did over the years. Many of them were young people, some recently graduated from universities in the States, who were coming back to work for the government in the various ministries. In a very short period of time, they became entrepreneurs -- very, very successful entrepreneurs -- in a climate that certainly encouraged entrepreneurship among the Saudis. So, their lives changed, their economic status changed, but it didn't change our relationships, which I think is a very telling thing.

Other than the relationships, I think my fondest memories certainly are of the desert and the traveling that I was able to do because of my husband's job.

SUSRIS: You mentioned in an early chapter of your book, Honey and Onions, that travel was relatively easy, as small as Riyadh was it didn't take long to get out of town.

It was amazing to see the transformation during those early years. When I say early years, I mean 1965 to about 1970. In that short time, all those villages had been transformed, by the highways and by the thrust of the government's investment in the villages and towns. They had clinics and schools. They began to get dependable electricity and running water before much of the development started in the cities themselves. It was remarkable to see the lives of these people so immensely improved.

SUSRIS: You eventually moved from Riyadh to Jeddah. Can you compare the two cities during that period?

Frances Meade: They were infinitely different. Jeddah was, after all, the diplomatic capital of the Kingdom at the time. You not only had the influx of foreign pilgrims during the Hajj season, but you also had an established international community of some size. Traditionally, Jeddah had always been, in terms of public life and social life, a far more open society. Of course, again, just the geographical location -- there you are on the Red Sea. You're living in a sub-tropical climate. All of those things made life there very different from life in Riyadh. Having said that, I'd also have to say that we were delighted three years later to go back to Riyadh. We preferred the desert climate anyway since we came from Arizona.

SUSRIS: How had Riyadh changed while you were away?

Frances Meade: It had improved. There was more housing available and more amenities. For me, it was a very exciting time because that's when I became principal of the school. So, I had my own agenda in coming back to Riyadh.

In fact, I came back before my husband moved the company from Jeddah. I was by myself and had the experience of being a single woman living in Riyadh. Again, people were just wonderful to me. I started work immediately at the school on an emergency basis after the death of my predecessor. That was why I had come before the company moved.

I began to appreciate the kind of introspection that I think you need as a single person, regardless of gender, living in isolation in a restricted society. You have to make your own entertainment. Well, we did then. Remember, we didn't have television and, obviously, no public entertainment of any kind. People were good about sharing books. You did a lot of reading. That was an interesting time for me, but it only lasted for about six weeks.

SUSRIS: What were the attitudes in Saudi Arabia toward America and Americans? It was a period of turmoil in the region -- after the 1967 war. The relationships among the United States, Israel and the Arab world must have been on people's minds. Was that reflected in anyway people were treated?

SUSRIS: When you say "Saudi Arabia" to many Americans, they may think of the oil embargo around the time of the 1973 war. Was the pragmatic Saudi outlook still there?

Frances Meade: The 1973 war was a very peculiar time. It did not in any way arouse the kind of interest and excitement that the 1967 war did. I remember sitting in my office at the school, when the secretary said that there was a Saudi man there to see me. I thought we might be having a little bit of a problem. He came in and sat down. But, it turned out he wanted a job for his wife at the school. There was no discussion about the war that was going on. It rather startled me because I expected at least a reference. It was an interesting little cameo.

SUSRIS: Was the nature of relationships changing as the expatriate community was growing?

Frances Meade: Not in the early '70s. The period of the great build-up was from 1975 on, when you had a tremendous inundation not only of American companies but also of other foreigners as well. Toward the end of the 1970s, you began to sense a division between the Saudis and everybody else not in terms of liking or disliking one another but in purely social terms. In a sense, the Saudis put the wagons in a circle because they preferred their own society and their own culture. They could perceive that there was a certain threat to it with the number of foreigners coming in, and I think that was not an unreasonable perception. In any case, there was a certain reciprocity with the foreigners isolating themselves in compounds.

SUSRIS: Can you share some of your experiences in Saudi Arabia after the boom period began in the 1970s?

Frances Meade: Well, my perspective changed in the late 1970s when I left the school and went to work for the U.S. Information Service, which had established a very small office in Riyadh in addition to its school for English as a second language. It was a forerunner to the eventual move of the embassy to Riyadh from Jeddah. The ambassador began to spend time in Riyadh, although not in residence until 1984. In 1986, the diplomatic quarter was completed, and the current embassy building opened. But, before that, it was housed in a building downtown.

Being in Riyadh is was much like living in mini-Washington where everyone was somehow connected to the host government. My husband's company, for example, operated on a contract with the Ministry of Communications, and his first job was as the company liaison to the government since the company headquarters were originally located in Jeddah. The government had a direct impact on all our lives as foreigners, so it was a constant topic of discussion, and we became very knowledgeable about its operations.

Now, working for the U.S. government, after having been part of the Saudi community for so long, made me turn around and look back, if you will, at the life I had been leading and the context in which I had been leading it with a slightly different eye. What I accepted as normal I was now seeing through a new American filter, and I began to realize how fast things were changing. First of all, there were, through my job, meetings with and access to people in the Saudi government at a level, which I had not enjoyed before. That was, of course, extremely interesting.

Eventually, I moved into protocol at the embassy, and we were flooded with visitors from the United States. There were congressional delegations everywhere you looked -- back-to-back sometimes. It was an exciting kind of life. It gave me an exposure to an entirely different level of Saudi activity that I certainly had never had before and an opportunity to share my own experience with official visitors.

SUSRIS: Any stories from those visits?

Frances Meade: Yes. I made some discoveries. One was that when escorting the female half of a delegation, to the university or the museum, there would be a singular lack of ladies' facilities in these exclusively male venues. I finally solved that problem by making a sign in English and Arabic that read, "Ladies." In an emergency, I would just stick it on a door and then stand in front of it trying to look forbidding. It worked. There were mishaps too. The wife of one of the most distinguished members of the House of Representatives insisted on a close-up visit to a camel and was bitten in an extremely embarrassing area, much to her chagrin. And, wonderful events like the visit of the Challenger crew with whom Prince Sultan bin Salman had flown. I escorted Dr. Shannon Lucid to the magnificent party given in her honor by the prince's mother at which we were entertained by women wearing the traditional costumes and performing the dances indigenous to the different areas of the Kingdom. It was a night when I was particularly proud to be an American watching the enthusiasm with which Dr. Lucid was greeted. The Saudi ladies obviously saw in her the possibilities for all women. We had some very interesting visitors including the Carters and the Bushes. I can't say too much about Rosalyn Carter, who was one of the most professional and adaptable women I've escorted. I always found that the higher the status of the visitor, the easier they were to be kept to a schedule.

SUSRIS: Official visitors were probably able to attend briefings and meetings that most media wouldn't have been covering or that most Americans wouldn't have been exposed to. Were there any other reactions you can tell us about?

Frances Meade: Yes, I think that is true. But, I used to make a particular effort to get visitors into the schools, for example, to see what was going on, and to meet the women I was talking about. And, I wanted to get them into social settings, not with the wives of the top-level people but with women who were doing interesting things or were housewives who were educated or educating themselves. There were many of those.

I can't say enough about the capability of Saudi women. They've done some really remarkable things. They do it in a very low-key way because that is the way it is done, but they have achieved a great deal individually and as a group. The business about the election coming up and that women are going to be excluded from voting actually surprised me. Maybe I'm just out of touch, but when I was in Arabia last year, there was so much talk about it among women who were convinced that this was actually something that was coming to them that this edict is a little bit surprising. But, I don't think it is the last word. I think ultimately, the vote will come for women.

This week, we got an annual report from the U.S.-Saudi Arabian Business Council. I thought it was very interesting that, listed among the Saudi Chambers of Commerce, the Riyadh Chamber of Commerce was the only one that now has a women's division and lists the women who run it. So, again, these are incremental steps, but I think we ought to stand back a bit and accept a society that moves incrementally. After all, it did take a very long time in the United States. I think our expectations are a little high about a relatively young country, and I have great hopes for the things that women will ultimately achieve in Saudi Arabia.

Unfortunately, we in the West only see the picture of a veiled woman. I remember back in the '60s, a Saudi friend, who was one of the first women to work for the Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs saying, "Why are we talking about the veil? What do I care what I'm wearing when I am talking to the minister, and he's listening to my advice." Of course, that is it in a nutshell. We, I think, emphasize the wrong thing.

SUSRIS: What can be done to challenge these stereotypes, especially about women's issues?

Frances Meade: One of the things I have been doing, in connection with the exhibitions of my Bedouin jewelry collection, is to speak to various groups. The exhibit is called "A Woman's Treasure," and the women I talk to are absolutely stunned to discover that the jewelry represents portable capital. It is something that belongs to women and represents what they own. Bedouins were traveling people. But, this belongs to a woman. Nobody else, not her husband, has a right to it. She is strictly in control. They are so shocked to imagine that this is possible. We go on from there to the kind of independence that women value and how it is reflected in their lives, particularly those who are very hardworking. Certainly, the nomadic tribes are hardworking.

SUSRIS: A significant amount of media attention has been focused on Saudi Arabia, especially after 9/11, and much of it has been negative. Are there any perceptions of Saudi Arabia that may be circulating that strike you as erroneous based on your experience in the Kingdom?

SUSRIS: In a recent interview, Wyche Fowler, who served as Ambassador to Saudi Arabia from 1996 to 2001, told us many Arabs are frustrated and resentful about the U.S. government's policies in the region and that he was worried that those feelings might be transferred from the American government to the American people. Do you see that happening in Saudi Arabia?

Frances Meade: I think the Saudis have always -- certainly in my experience -- recognized the value of individual foreigners rather than their governments. I particularly remember when during the 1967 war when tempers were pretty high in general, there was no problem for us as individuals with our Saudi friends.

SUSRIS: What's your read on business-to-business ties? Are American businesses still enthusiastic about Saudi Arabia or are they concerned about the security situation?

Frances Meade: It's hard to say. Obviously, American companies are continuing to work there. I think they are finding it harder to get people to go. I was doing consulting work for Lucent, cross-cultural training for their employees going to Saudi Arabia. Well, that has completely dried up.

I just don't think people are encouraged at all by American companies to go to Saudi Arabia. I can understand why. The present climate is pretty difficult to deal with. Americans who are living there and who have been living there, of course, adapt. This is life as it is lived. Externals may change, but your life goes on just the same. But, that is a hard sell for an American family. Now, you may be getting American men on bachelor status. I am sure there are fewer and fewer American families that are going.

Certainly, the American school is a barometer with a student population predominantly of Asian and Middle Eastern students. So, you can tell in what direction things are going. It doesn't speak very well for our future there.

SUSRIS: Are you still in touch with the school?

Frances Meade: Yes. In fact, the school celebrated its 40th anniversary this year. I was asked to send a video describing what the school was like in its early days. They sent me some wonderful videos in return. It was a delightful exchange.

Its name has changed again. It was originally the Riyadh International Community School, then the Saudi Arabia International School-Riyadh, and now it is the American International School - Riyadh.

SUSRIS: In summing up, where we are in the people-to-people relationship?

Frances Meade: My biggest concern is the younger generation. I think there is no question that there is going to be a division. There has to be.

SUSRIS: Your book, Honey and Onions, when was it written? Tell us about it.

Frances Meade: It was written in 1996 and published in Arabia. There were a number of things that I did not put in the book because -- not that they were scandalous -- they could possibly offend some sensibilities. One must take that into consideration.

In the revision, I have added some anecdotes that might be humorous and some that might be rather revealing of the context of the society. It's nothing dramatic, I assure you, but I had so many requests for it that I figured, "Okay, why not?"

I'm bogged down as I have been for the past six years in trying to finish the other book, and in the meantime, I thought that this one might probably fill a gap.

SUSRIS: What's the other book?

Frances Meade: The other book will attempt to cover the whole period of our time in Saudi Arabia. Interestingly enough, it was 33 years, which is the cycle of the Islamic calendar. I hadn't quite realized it until we were getting ready to leave, and I suddenly thought, "Good heavens! It's Ramadan again. That's where it was when we came here." I think there is something to be said for that particular cycle, which of course was so dramatic in terms of development, and I feel very lucky to have lived through it.

SUSRIS: Well, that sounds like a wonderful project. So, the Honey and Onions that is available now is a revision with new material?

Frances Meade: Yes.

SUSRIS: Earlier, you talked about exhibits. Can you tell us more about the "Arab Americans in Arizona" exhibit?

Frances Meade: It's fascinating. It traces the arrival and the blossoming of some very prominent Arab American families, who have been highly successful here. It's basically divided into the different phases of their experience. Starting with the arrival phase, there is wonderful documentation about people's visas, the papers that were needed to get here and how they arrived.

Then, there is the development period when they went into various business ventures and what they accomplished. They even have a shopping cart from the first supermarket owned by an Arab American. It is now one of the largest supermarket chains in Arizona.

There is a section on tradition and culture, and religion is folded into that. My contribution to this is the Bedouin jewelry, costumes and various artifacts. I've been delighted to be part of this because I think it is such a worthwhile thing to do, especially now. Let's hear it for the Arab-Americans who really made it here and enriched our community with what they brought with them from the Middle East.

The exhibit runs until April at the Mesa Southwest Museum in Mesa, Arizona.

SUSRIS: This has been a wonderful conversation. These are the hard to come by insights that Americans need to hear more about. Do you have any final thoughts on the U.S.-Saudi relationship?

Frances Meade: When you think about it, the relationship almost follows the curve of development, which peaked and started falling off with the decline in oil prices in the 1990s. At the same time, this new curve of hate and bigotry seemed to ascend.

It's just a very sad thing because certainly the Kingdom is more than oil. It's got some awfully bright people and some people with good instincts in terms of what they would like the country to be. We are almost at an impasse now wondering which way it is going to go. Clearly, the economy is on an upswing with the higher oil prices, but I don't think that is going to reverse the other trend.

It's hard to know how it all will work out. I am still willing to place a bet on the royal family's sustaining their position and influence. Their downfall has been predicted for so long that I think it has become the automatic response of the media to any Saudi problem.

I don't place any bets at all on the long-range attitudes of "us" and "them" toward one other. That's a little bit pessimistic perhaps, but it may be realistic too.

We should also recognize that a country can be its own worst enemy in its public pronouncements. This goes for us as well. If there were a foot-in-mouth contest, I think it might be a draw.

Related Links:

• A Woman's Treasure: Bedouin Jewelry of the Arabian Peninsula -- The Bead Museum
• A Woman's Treasure: Bedouin Jewelry and Artifacts of the Arabian Peninsula -- Exhibits USA
• Experience Saudi Arabia with Fran Meade
• "Glendale exhibit mines meaning of beads" -- East Valley Tribune
• Biography of Richard Meade - Scottsdale, Arizona -- Aramco Expats
• Upcoming Exhibits: "Arab Americans in Arizona" -- Mesa Southwest Museum [PDF]