Interview
With Saudi Arabia's Prince Waleed Bin
Talal
'We Too Are Victims of Terrorism'
By Der Spiegel |
The
interview was conducted by editors Gerhard Spörl
and Bernhard Zand in Paris.
SPIEGEL:
Your Highness, 2004 was a year of very high
oil prices that filled the coffers of Arab
states. Where does this money actually go?
Prince
Waleed: Last year Saudi Arabia earned almost
$33 billion more than expected. The government
set aside a large share of the money, investing
about $8 billion and using the rest to pay off
its debts. Private investors are even more
conservative and prefer to put their money in
the bank -- mainly in Europe, and to a somewhat
lesser extent in the United States. Arabs are
hardly investing any of their money these days,
and if they do, it's in the real estate market.
SPIEGEL:
Why?
Prince
Waleed: This is an unexpected trend. Last
fall, for example, the government of Abu Dhabi
was interested in acquiring a stake in
Volkswagen, but then the deal fell apart. Right
now many Arabs prefer to keep their assets
liquid. The investments I propose are usually
projects in the Middle East. I myself certainly
invest in Europe and the United States, but I'm
the exception.
SPIEGEL:
What do you, personally, feel is the most
attractive place to invest today? Are you
tempted by the strong euro?
Prince
Waleed: Through my holdings in the United
States, Canada and Europe, I invest indirectly
in more than 120 countries. Because of this
global presence, my company operates on a dollar
basis. I am not interested in currency
speculation. But I do expect the international
financial situation to improve. Who knows,
perhaps 2005 will be the year when Japan sails
out of its slump, and perhaps Germany will also
get back on its feet. The markets in the Middle
East are definitely trending upward these days.
That's where I invested most of my money in the
past year.
SPIEGEL:
The US deficit for the next ten years is
estimated at $855 billion, a figure that does
not include military expenditures in Afghanistan
and Iraq. Are you worried about this? After all,
you are the biggest foreign investor in the
United States.
Prince
Waleed: America's problem is not just its
budget deficit, but also its enormous trade
deficit. No country on earth can afford such an
imbalance forever, not even the United States,
with its strong economy. Of course, as a major
investor I am interested in a stable US economy
and a budget deficit that remains within reason.
|
SPIEGEL:
Before September 11, more than $600
billion in Saudi capital was tied up in
the United States. What have been the
economic consequences of the political
cooling off between Washington and
Riyadh?
Prince
Waleed: Of course, such a gruesome
and epochal event such as September 11
has consequences in all areas -- it goes
beyond economic affairs, and even beyond
the relationship between America and
Saudi Arabia. September 11 changed the
West's relationship to the Arab world,
and it opened a rift between Islam on
the one side and Christianity and
Judaism on the other. This has created a
feeling of uncertainty among some
Saudis, and they've withdrawn some of
their capital from of the USA. I do
exactly the opposite: I'm expanding my
investments in America.
|
"..such
a gruesome and
epochal event such as
September 11 has
consequences in all areas --
it goes beyond economic
affairs, and even beyond the
relationship between
America and Saudi Arabia.
September 11 changed the
West's relationship to the
Arab world, and it opened
a rift between Islam on the
one side and Christianity
and Judaism on the other.."
|
SPIEGEL:
The Saudi royal family's reputation in the
United States has suffered considerably. Not
only have you been accused of being lax on
terrorism, but also of having a compromisingly
close relationship to the Bush family.
Prince
Waleed: The Saudi royal family has always
had good relations with US administrations; this
applies to Jimmy Carter as much as it does to
Ronald Reagan. Perhaps we do get along even
better with the two Presidents Bush than with
their predecessors, but that shouldn't be
interpreted politically. Saudi Arabia gets along
well with whomever America elects to be its
president, whether he is a Republican or a
Democrat.
|
SPIEGEL:
How you feel about the civil suits
against Saudi businessmen pending in US
courts? Will they succeed?
Prince
Waleed: An American federal judge
threw out most of those cases two weeks
ago. Notwithstanding his ruling, while
it is true that 15 of the 19 attackers
on September 11 were from Saudi Arabia,
one cannot hold the Saudi government or
the entire Saudi people liable for their
actions. We too are victims of
terrorism. We have attacks almost every
week. There are people in Saudi Arabia
who support Osama bin Laden, but we are
fighting them and we will win.
|
"..We
too are victims
of terrorism. We have
attacks almost every
week.."
|
SPIEGEL:
Were you surprised that so many of the September
11 attackers were Saudis?
Prince
Waleed: I was surprised and I was shocked.
SPIEGEL:
Have you ever met Bin Laden?
Prince
Waleed: No, I've never met him.
|
SPIEGEL:
You attended universities in
California and New York. Being
pro-American, it must be difficult for
you to cope with the political and
psychological estrangement between the
United States and Saudi Arabia.
Prince
Waleed: Yes, but look at Germany,
for instance. After World War II, it
took years for the French, British and
Germans to reconcile. Today they are
allies. Such healing processes need
time, and this also applies to Saudi
Arabia and the United States. We all
have the obligation to build bridges
over the gulf that was formed by
September 11. I'm trying to do it in my
way, by establishing centers for
American studies, one in Beirut and one
in Cairo, as well as corresponding
institutes for Islamic studies in Great
Britain and the United States.
|
"..We
all have the
obligation to build
bridges over the
gulf that was formed
by September 11.."
|
SPIEGEL:
Prince Walid, a mediator in the battle of the
civilizations?
Prince
Waleed: I see myself as a philanthropist, as
a politician and as a member of the Saudi royal
family. God has blessed me with great wealth,
but this comes with obligations. Those who build
bridges must be capable of seeing the big
picture, and if I am needed as a businessman, I
can also help out financially.
SPIEGEL:
As a businessman, you are known for taking
over ailing companies and waiting patiently,
sometimes even decades, until they turn a
profit. Have you recently considered investing
in Iraq?
Prince
Waleed: No. Iraq is too unstable and
unpredictable. You cannot invest in a country
threatened by civil war, where bombs are
exploding every day. I can save ailing
companies, but not an ailing nation. Iraq is
consumed by a conflict involving the United
States, al-Qaida, the Kurds, the Sunnis and the
Shiites. All of this goes well beyond my
control. Iraq is a quagmire.
SPIEGEL:
Do you think the elections will improve the
situation?
Prince
Waleed: I hope so. But I don't see an end in
sight. Iraq has been a hotbed of unrest for
1,500 years. America has chosen the most
difficult of all Arab countries and has opened a
Pandora's Box.
SPIEGEL:
How can Saudi Arabia contribute to stability
in Iraq?
|
Prince
Waleed: We share an almost
800-kilometer (500 miles) common border
and have a very strong interest in a
stable Iraq. This is one of the reasons
why we expressly advised Washington
against disbanding Saddam's army.
Perhaps we will see things more clearly
in 20 or 30 years, but it's already
obvious today that disbanding the Iraqi
military was a big mistake and played a
large part in the country's
destabilization. And it's not just the
Iraqi population that suffers from the
situation there; it also affects Iraq's
neighbors, including Saudi Arabia. I am
not optimistic.
SPIEGEL:
Your government was a strong
supporter of elections in Iraq, but in
Saudi Arabia itself there is little
evidence of democratic reform.
Prince
Waleed: Saudi Arabia is a
traditional monarchy with a rather
homogeneous society, both religiously
and ethnically. You can't compare this
with Iraq. As muddled as the situation
in Baghdad is, elections could be a way
out -- by no means a guaranteed but
certainly a potential way out.
SPIEGEL:
But democracy is not limited to
ethnically inhomogeneous countries.
Prince
Waleed: Attempting to implant
western models of democracy into the
Middle East is a tricky strategy. I am a
strong supporter of freedom of
expression and of the press, but I doubt
that the German or the American model
could be applied in Saudi Arabia. Look
at countries like Singapore and China:
Are they what Washington would call
democracies? Is America trying to change
their political systems?
|
"..Attempting
to
implant western
models of democracy
into the Middle East
is a tricky strategy.
I am a strong supporter
of freedom of expression
and of the press, but I
doubt that the German
or the American model
could be applied in Saudi
Arabia. Look at countries
like Singapore and China:
Are they what Washington
would call democracies?
Is America trying to
change their political
systems? ..Give us time
to experiment.."
|
SPIEGEL:
China is changing rapidly.
Prince
Waleed: So is Saudi Arabia, but at a
different pace. We have just increased the
powers of the Majlis Al-Shura, our consultative
council. It can now influence the budget and
block government decisions. It isn't official
yet, but I assume that we will hold a national
election for this council within the next five
years.
SPIEGEL:
For now, half of Saudi Arabia's municipal
councils are to be elected, but women are still
not permitted to run for office or vote.
Prince
Waleed: That too will change. You may say
that it's taking too long, but I say: better
late than never. We are a very conservative
society. Since the municipal elections were
announced, only five to seven percent of
eligible voters have actually registered. There
is undoubtedly a great deal of apathy in our
society. People learn new ways very slowly. I am
pleased that we are beginning with elections at
the local level. If it turns out that mistakes
were made or voter turnout is too low, at least
we will have enough time to improve things. Give
us time to experiment.
SPIEGEL:
Saudi Arabia is an odd mixture of tradition and
modernity. Doesn't this discrepancy make it even
more difficult to reform the country?
Prince
Waleed: Like most Saudi Arabians, I myself
am a practicing, traditional Muslim, and yet I
have liberal views. I believe that women should
of course be allowed to drive cars, and that
they should generally have all rights that men
have. If you visit the hotel I own in Paris,
you'll find two verses of the Koran displayed in
the lobby, right next to the bar, where we serve
alcohol. I am the biggest shareholder in
Citigroup, the world's largest bank. Who do you
think is the president of Citigroup? He's a Jew.
Many of my friends and business associates are
Christians and Jews. Traditionalism and
liberalism are not mutually exclusive. But we
must be cautious and show respect for all
religions.
SPIEGEL:
One of the Koran verses displayed in the lobby
reads: "Thank God for your riches, and He
will reward you with even more." From your
perspective, is this the approach to saving the
Arab world: Create affluence and only then risk
granting more democracy?
Prince
Waleed: Capitalism and Islam fit together
very well. Islam encourages the faithful to
engage in trade and earn money. There is no
contradiction here. Contradictions only come
from those who insist on shouting and yelling.
But these people are against everything. In
fact, ultimately they're against themselves. We
must not allow them to come to power. I do not
shout and yell. I rely on reason.
SPIEGEL:
Your Highness, thank you for this interview.
Translated
from the German by Christopher Sultan
[This
interview appeared in the New York Times on
January 31, 2005. It is reprinted here
with permission.]
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