Assistant Secretary C. David Welch has served as the head of the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs in the U.S. State Department since March 2005, following about three and a half years as U.S. Ambassador to Egypt.  His Foreign Service career has included numerous postings in the field (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Pakistan) and in Washington (Deputy Assistant Secretary in the Bureau he now heads, desk officer for Syria and Lebanon, staff member at the National Security Council and Assistant Secretary for International Organization Affairs) that have prepared him well for his present job -- overseeing US foreign policy and diplomatic relations in 18 countries stretching from Morocco to the Arabian Peninsula.

Last week SUSRIS talked with Mr. Welch about the relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia and the challenges that confront them in his office at the State Department.  From his current perspective as the top American diplomat focused exclusively on the region and with his background as Deputy Chief of Mission in the Kingdom, including two years as Charges d'Affaires, he provided a rare insight into issues facing the countries.  We are pleased to share our conversation with you in this exclusive interview.

Patrick W. Ryan

C. David Welch
Assistant Secretary of State, Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs
Washington, DC, March 21, 2006

SUSRIS: Thank you for taking time from your busy schedule to talk with us today about US-Saudi relations. Can we start with the state of the government-to-government relationship? How would you describe the ties between Washington and Riyadh?

Assistant Secretary C. David Welch: This has been an important period in US-Saudi relations. With the death of King Fahd and the transition to the leadership of, then Crown Prince Abdullah, and now, King Abdullah marks an important turning point in the relationship.

As you know, because of King Fahd�s illness things have been managed under the Crown Prince�s leadership in the Kingdom for some time. We had confidence in that interim period but now that he has ascended to king it marks a new point in the relationship. 

Fahd was a close friend of the United States and we had a great deal of experience dealing with the kingdom under his leadership but now the relationship is taking a new course forward under King Abdullah.

I would describe relations as very good. There are important areas of very positive cooperation between us and the kingdom. Like in any mature relationship there are also areas where we may have from time to time our disagreements, but our dialogue with the kingdom is such that we are able to address those candidly and try to work solutions where needed. If that�s not possible we at least agree on what we disagree on and work forward from that. 

The relationship between President Bush and King Abdullah is excellent. They have met a number of times. There is very good personal rapport. I expect to see that pattern of interaction continue. Underneath our president the day-to-day management of the relationship is entrusted of course to the Secretary of State, who heads, along with Prince Saud al-Faisal, our side of the Strategic Dialogue with Saudi Arabia. It is an instrument we inaugurated last year in Crawford Texas. We met once there to open it and then again in November of last year in a more formal setting in Riyadh. Now we are preparing for another round of that Strategic Dialogue probably in the May time frame, although that�s not fixed just yet. 

We will alternate this between Washington and the Kingdom, which is a format that we like because it provides an opportunity for our senior officials to go to Saudi Arabia, to meet with people there, to broaden the audience about the relationship on both sides. That�s a new instrument and I�m pleased to say it is off to a pretty good start as far as we�re concerned.

SUSRIS: Are there other meetings in connection with the Strategic Dialogue set for this month?

Welch: Yes, there are a number of working groups we�ve comprised under this umbrella of the Strategic Dialogue. In some cases the work in these groups is essentially already ongoing. 

Let me give you an example what I mean by that. On counter terrorism -- we didn�t invent something new, we chose to use an instrument that was already in place and functioning well for each side, but give it a new link and nexus with the other parts of the Strategic Dialogue. 

When we actually sit people down together then, the idea is to enable somebody who might working on counter terrorism, say on the financing perspective in our Treasury Department and on the Saudi side in their Ministry of Interior, for those officials to interact with people who may be working on consular affairs or reform related issues. In that way people can see the breadth of the relationship and understand different parts of it. You know in the past this was not all that easy to do in the case of the Kingdom, in some instances the United States too. 

It�s intended to replicate the dialogue that we have with our other allies, our key non-Arab allies for example. So the groups that have met so far: counter terrorism, economics, and we�ve had a discussion of the partnership working group just recently in the Kingdom, energy has also met. In the consular group we are trying to energize that one a little bit because we are continuing to have visa problems and access issues from both sides that we want to address. So this practical work is underway but what we are hoping for as that pace picks up we will have more robust presentations in each of the successive ministerial meetings that come. The first one of those as I mentioned is likely to be in May. 

SUSRIS: Will the results of these meetings be available to the public?

Welch: From time to time I think some of the results will surface publicly but right now what we want to do is create confidence on both sides in addressing issues that are what some might see as sensitive to each government. Most of this will occur in an environment where that confidence will contribute to progress. 

Aspects of that will be presented publicly. I can imagine, for example, as we testify in Congress about the relationship we will harken back to some of the things that were done there. But what I would really like to see us actually do is achieve some measurable results. For example in the partnership working group we are looking at educational exchanges where the Saudi government and American government have made commitments to education exchanges, something that was very important in the past for US-Saudi relations, a higher bracket item. 

When I looked at this when I came in here as Assistant Secretary for example, it was disappointing to me the low number of Saudi students in the United States. I think King Abdullah has taken a look at that himself and said this is a situation we would like to rectify and is willing to contribute resources to that end. So that we don�t end up with a situation, ten, fifteen, twenty years down the road where we take a look at the Saudi cabinet of the day and we don�t see people like we see today -- like Prince Turki for example, who had been educated in the United States, like Prince Saud, who had been educated in the United States. Those are links that are enormously beneficial for us in cultivating the kind of relationships needed to succeed in our foreign policy objectives there, but also enormously beneficial for Saudis in bringing to development in the kingdom some of the experience that they gain here in America.

SUSRIS: One of the issues discussed at the Crawford meeting last year, was that issue -- the people-to-people exchange issue. Since then getting a visa is still a hurdle to be overcome. Where do we stand on visa problems -- in both directions?

Welch: Well there is work to be done in both directions, in all honesty. Access to the kingdom is not all that easy as you know, and highly regulated. And in the aftermath of 9-11 we have continuing concerns about our own border security. 

I think there is a way to strike the right balance between openness and protection. And of course, that�s our obligation as public servants to protect the security of Americans wherever they are, especially in our homeland. We want to do that diligently. But I do think there is work that can be done here to improve access of Saudis to the United States on a more regular and systematic basis. I think you will be able to measure from the available data that we have made some significant progress in this area. 

SUSRIS: Turning to the business to business relationship, do you see American businesses engaged as much as they should be in the booming economy in the Kingdom?

Welch: Well, we would like to do more. The short answer to that is yes. The kingdom has always been a relatively friendly environment for American businesses but the next focus of development in the kingdom is going to be one of greater self-reliance. Part of that is, I think, going to be built with support from the American business community. 

As the kingdom looks at globalizing its economy, now that it is entering the WTO, and looking down the road to how it develops its commercial and other relationships with the outside, we intend to play a big part. This is an area where we have a very strong commercial interest. 

When I was in Saudi Arabia in the early 1990s, �92 through�95, we had a very heavy focus on commercial diplomacy and I like to believe that we will be able to maintain our competitiveness there. 

You know, in some of the traditional businesses we are still quite strong and have an enormous comparative advantage -- oil and gas sector, for example. But in some other businesses in the last fifteen years competitors have come forward to challenge our industries, so we have to be determined and persevere in this. Aircraft for example -- commercial aircraft is an area where in the early 90s our competitive advantage was much greater than it is today, now it is a tough business. So we have to be able to offer a good product and do so in a way with support of our community here to give the best offer forward. 

SUSRIS: What challenges do you see facing people who want to do business in Saudi Arabia. 

Welch: Well I think, lets be honest, getting in and doing business there requires some local knowledge and access. My experience has been that it�s more difficult in the kingdom than it needs to be. 

I�m sure people in the kingdom would say that getting into the United States also has its difficulties for Saudi citizens. So we need to address those problems. There are places where, frankly, it is much more easy for our businesses to operate. 

I think as Saudi Arabia looks at how it globalizes its economy it�s going to have to pay attention to offering opportunities to others because that generates economic activity, generates interest on the part of the companies in headquartering there -- not just for the business in the kingdom but for business elsewhere in the region. That will be important for the economic base and job base in the kingdom. So we ask them to consider those things and open up access more.

SUSRIS: Can you talk about how the security environment might impact business developments?

Welch: This remains a concern. However it isn�t as negative a picture as it was some months ago. The Saudi government is determined and resourceful in its combat against terrorism, including domestically. Their record of success is pretty good. We all know now this is not a perfect environment. There are risks to all of us no matter where we are. 

That said, I sense a really different direction in the kingdom on this issue in the last several years. In time these peoples, who are enemies of both our nations, will be vanquished and the security environment should be a lot better for Saudis and foreigners alike. In the meantime, I think that one has to be very respectful of these security concerns. 

We, as you know, advise our citizens regularly on difficulties when we are aware of them. The American community is a significant one in the kingdom, and in general most Americans who are in the kingdom are not itinerants. They have been there for some time. They are making an investment personally with their business and I think they have a pretty good comprehension of the risks they face. So in a sense they internalize some of this and make their own balance, come to their own balance about how to address it. 

SUSRIS: The new Saudi Ambassador to the US, Prince Turki, when we talked to him a few weeks ago, echoed your comments about the government relationships being on a steady course now and that his mandate from the king is to outreach to the media, to the American public and to the Congress. He has been out around America to places like Massachusetts, Texas, New York and Arizona. Can you comment on the approach he has taken to reaching out to the American people?

Welch: Sure. And let me preface that by saying that our Ambassador in Saudi Arabia tries to do the same. Ambassador Oberwetter travels regularly in the kingdom. He meets with all types of audiences there -- in private settings and in more public ones. It�s very important for diplomatic outreach to have a substantial public element. 

I think His Royal Highness Prince Turki recognizes that here in the United States. I think he also understands that dealing with our public and presenting a face for Saudi Arabia that is recognizable to Americans, and understandable to Americans is a huge part of his mission. 

He has done that not just inside the �beltway,� but as you mentioned also outside of Washington. I pay more attention to what�s going on in the kingdom than what�s going on here but I do read what he says from time to time and talk to him about that part of his mission. I have to say that I think he is doing very, very well at it.

It helps that he knows our country and, you know Prince Turki I�m sure, he�s an affable, comfortable man. Americans respect that. They don�t see him as talking down to them. They see him as kind of a normal person who comes and expresses his country�s national interests and does so in an understandable way. As I said, we can agree with some of what he says, disagree with some of what he says. But the important thing is to get a dialogue going in these different places. After the trauma of 9-11 it�s hugely important for this to be done on a sustained, systematic basis by representatives of both governments. 

SUSRIS: Can we talk about regional issues that the United States and Saudi Arabia are concerned about, starting with Iraq? Is there a role for Saudi Arabia in working with the United States in Iraq?

Assistant Secretary of State C. David Welch: Yes, we have an important -- take the Strategic Dialogue for example -- an important component of that at the ministerial level is really to have a common look at what the significant issues are for our national security concerns -- theirs and ours in this region. 

The ones that we discuss are ones that are out there in the public domain. For example, Iran, Iraq, Arab-Israeli Peace, reform issues in Saudi Arabia and across the region, the bilateral relationship and, you know, the kingdom is a significant player in the region and has a leadership role in the GCC, for example, shares a border with a number of key places. So we believe that not only that it has a natural interest in some of these issues but can also play an effective role. 

The style of diplomacy for Saudi Arabia is, as you know, a bit different than ours but we understand that and the important thing is to have a sense of common purpose and then to carefully, quietly define those areas of joint endeavors so that we can assure our mutual needs are met. 

I�ll give you an example of that and then we can come back to more detail in other questions. There are issues of concern to us that are discussed in inter-Arab councils, be that the GCC or Arab League. And we have a quiet and very effective dialogue with Saudi Arabia as we do with America�s other friends in the area to specify what those issues are, hear their advice on how to tackle them. We respect that advice. It is very useful to us as we go out and make our policy more effective. 

SUSRIS: Specifically concerning Iraq, are there any efforts going forward that you can comment on such as the Saudis role in organizing the Arab League�s reconciliation conference in Cairo in November? 

Welch: They continue to be important in the process of government formation, which is done on the principle of unity and reconciliation. You know they look at Iraq as a nation that is part of the Arab nation. And they see maintaining the unity and sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq under stable effective government representing all Iraqis as a hugely important objective. And we think they have a role to play in counseling Iraqis, particularly certain Iraqis about how to do that. As you know, they have been reaching out to Iraqis to get that point across and hosting some of them for visits.

SUSRIS:  Saudi Arabia proposed an Islamic stabilization security force for Iraq over a year and a half ago. Secretary Powell was in Riyadh when it was tabled. What happened to that idea? Did it just not have any legs?

Welch: Well, it remains an interesting and perhaps useful idea. But the response of the international community to coalition building inside Iraq has been uneven. There is not much of a presence there of forces from any Muslim nations and there hasn�t been much creativity or willingness on the part of certain other Muslim nations in looking at ideas about how to do that that might be, say different or more comfortable to them than supporting the present coalition. 

You know there was a Saudi idea that surfaced at one point, others talked at another juncture about a Muslim force to protect the UN presence in Iraq, and that idea also didn�t find fertile ground. I think as Iraq stabilizes and, you know, despite all the news we see, there is progress toward that objective. Maybe some countries will rethink these positions. 

Right now from the point of view of the United States what would be an enormously useful, on the part of Arab nations particularly, is that they increase their diplomatic representation. Not all Arab nations are represented in Baghdad and I think that would be useful to the Iraqi government and that would be useful to the Iraqi people. 

SUSRIS: Iran. Can you comment on how the United States and Saudi Arabia are dealing with Iran?

Welch: Well I think we are both gravely worried about what we see as the emphasis from this new leadership in Tehran since their election last summer on broadening Iran�s regional power outreach. In some cases it is a very negative trend. Their language and their actions are alarming. That�s quite a bit separate from what I call their nuclear misbehavior, which is a long-term problem of some gravity. We have a good dialogue with the Saudi government on these issues, regularly reinforced by high level contacts. We have a very clear understanding of the strategic threat here and a common sense that it has to be addressed. 

SUSRIS: Israel-Palestine. How will the United States and Saudi Arabia deal with the new situation in the Palestinian authority, the Hamas electoral victory, with everyone struggling with how to continue funding for the Palestinians? 

Welch: Well, our objective is to see a Hamas government either assent to the same principles everybody in the international community. Moreover it should assume the responsibility, with all that entails, to try to govern under circumstances where it does what is necessary for the interests of its people. 

The Saudi government sponsored a peace initiative with the Arab League at the Beirut summit [2002]. To this day Hamas has not indicated its position on those Arab League resolutions, which were mirrored again in successive summits in Tunis and Algiers. 

Those are necessary, but not sufficient, to meet the three baskets that concern the international community: the acceptance of Israel as a fact, the renunciation of violence and terrorism and the acceptance of all the prior agreements and obligations including the �roadmap.� No one wants to throw out all that work over the last years but regrettably to this moment we see no indication on the part of Hamas as the party that it is prepared to accept any of these things. 

Once it becomes the government I think the responsibility grows for them. They live right next to Israel. They have daily obligation to their own people for interaction with Israel. How they are going to satisfy their needs is a really complicated question. 

We�ve discussed this with the Saudis -- the Secretary of State did personally. Our concern is that no assistance should go to the Hamas government. We will organize ourselves accordingly. I think we will have very good support from the international community for that outcome. That doesn�t mean that we would impose any kind of collective punishment on the Palestinian people. On the contrary our intention is to protect against their humanitarian difficulties which may well be imposed on them by the unwillingness of the new government to deal with some of the concerns of the international community. We hope it doesn�t come to that. 

SUSRIS: Prince Turki told us that Saudi Arabia has never provided funds to Hamas, or to Fatah for that matter, but they would provide funding for humanitarian requirements through third parties such as the Arab League and the UN in a way similar to the position taken by the EU.

Welch: Well the EU has taken the position that it is going to review all its assistance. And they are substantial supporters to the budget of the Palestinian Authority and my guess is there is a significant risk to continuing that support. I can�t speak for them at this juncture. 

Everybody agrees, however, that humanitarian assistance is likely to be necessary. The question then will be then how you go about doing that, and there may be different approaches depending on who the partners are. But a key consideration for us in all this would be, not to assist the government or its ministries if they are under Hamas leadership and not to contribute directly to Hamas as an organization or any entity representing it. 

SUSRIS:  Can you comment about the political, social and economic reforms taking place in the kingdom -- the National Dialogue, municipal elections, women�s issues and so forth?

Welch: We see a number of good steps forward. Plainly King Abdullah has reenergized this using his mantle now as king. We think King Abdullah is a reformist. 

The way this is done in Saudi Arabia is up to the Saudis, but we are very interested in it. Prince Turki has led, here, an effort to broaden this dialogue and is personally in charge of the partnership working group under the Strategic Dialogue so that we can have these interactions about these subjects. 

As you know the social situation, economic situation, political situation in Saudi Arabia can be quite a bit different than in most Arab countries and certainly different from here. No one has a magic prescription as to how to go about doing this. But I think some of the ideas that we see now in play in the kingdom are really quite interesting. I�ve lived there and I know they do things at their own pace. Our view is if the objective is more clear, and the pace is certain, then that�s a good thing. 

SUSRIS: Congress has gotten itself involved in some aspects of the US-Saudi political relationships in the past year or two. Can you comment about the role Congress is playing in shaping US policy toward Saudi Arabia?

Welch: There are a lot of important voices in the Congress on issues involving the region. It�s very important to pay attention to those, particularly on any specific concerns regarding Saudi Arabia. You know sometimes those are portrayed quite dramatically by the media and others. The key question is, is there a will to find a way to work on some of these issues. Some of them are very tough. If you look at some of the questions involving child custody, for example, which have been a feature of Congressional attention in the past. These are socially very difficult on both sides. Happily there�s a spirit of willingness to carefully and quietly look at some of these matters and see if we can�t do something about them. I think we have managed to strengthen that joint effort in recent months. And some of these problems are not unique to the kingdom. We have custody issues regrettably with quite a number of governments but they get a special flavor when Saudi Arabia is involved. 

I think Prince Turki�s work to go out and talk to Americans including in the Congress is hugely important in this regard. You know, in the Kingdom there needs to be a greater effort to not demonize certain aspects of what America represents. 

In the United States there should be an effort also not to demonize the Kingdom. As I said, I�ve lived there. I know that 99.99 percent of all Saudis are good people and don�t dislike our country, and they want to have a good relationship with America and Americans and I would hope the same with our citizens too. Realizing, as I said earlier, that there were going to be things that we were going to have to work on that are hard for both sides, having the right spirit to do that is essential. 

SUSRIS:  A number of analysts saw the Bush-Abdullah meeting in Crawford last year as a milestone -- moving the relationship out of the shadow of 9-11 into a new era. Is the relationship in a new era?

Welch: I think the Crawford summit was a turning point. President Bush intended it that way. He offered extraordinary hospitality of his ranch to King Abdullah in order to mark that moment. As I said, his accession to the throne is an important platform for him to energize his direction of the Kingdom. 

This is a relationship, again as I mentioned, in which there have been some enormous stresses in the last few years and one can�t just kind of wash those away. But with a good solid effort led by our President on our side and the Secretary of State and on the Saudi side by the leadership in the government up to and including the king, I think we can make a lot of progress in the coming years.

This is a relationship that is hugely important to both sides and it goes beyond the issues that are traditionally in the minds of Americans like oil and gas and commercial relations. The kingdom is the seat of the holy sites and the beacon to many Muslims world-wide. So it has a certain quality to it that�s important to us to respect and observe. That and the fact that the Middle East, despite the over two and a half decades of joint effort between Saudi Arabia and the United States, remains a troubled and stressful place that, requires and demands, for our mutual national interests, that we both take this very, very seriously. 

I think having this summit in Crawford last year, at the beginning of the second term for President Bush, really set this off in a new direction and now we�ve got the next several years while President Bush is here in office to build a relationship that his successor can inherit that will be much better than it was. 

SUSRIS: What would you tell Americans about Saudi Arabians that they may not understand very well; and what would you tell Saudi Arabians about Americans.

Welch: Well, I think for Saudis, who I hope are paying attention, America is not a hostile place. We don�t hate Arabs. We don�t hate Muslims. And we don�t hate Saudis. We do feel that people need to recognize our unique qualities as a people. We are a freedom-loving nation with lots of different kinds of opinions and attitudes here. Pluralism is a good thing and we embrace change. 

When you look at the Kingdom and try to explain the Kingdom to Americans then I think you almost, in a sense, have to look at the flip side of that coin. It�s a much more homogenous society than our own. Because it has the holy places it has a certain character and quality. Americans generally don�t have a very good appreciation or understanding of Islam, particularly as it is observed in the Kingdom. 

There needs to be a lot of work done by the Saudis to explain that to Americans so that it is not seen as such a threatening thing. I feel privileged because at a key point in my career I was able to represent our country in the Kingdom. I think I understand it a little bit better than most Americans but even for me it remains a lesson that I have to study every day because countries change even if they do so in ways that are not immediately transparent to those on the outside. 

I commend Prince Turki for going out there and talking to regular Americans as much as he can, just as we ask Ambassador Oberwetter to get out and meet as many Saudis as possible. We have a substantial diplomatic mission in the kingdom and we want them out there as much as possible to engage with people trying to show a good look for America.

SUSRIS:  Thank you again, Mr. Welch, for sharing your time and your views on US-Saudi relations. 

Interview with Assistant Secretary C. David Welch:

• Introduction by Patrick W. Ryan

• Part One - The State of the Relationship

• Part Two - Regional Issues

• Complete Interview

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