Editor's Note:

This is first in a series of articles and interviews arising from a visit by a World Affairs Councils of America (WACA) delegation to Saudi Arabia. The group, which included members from the national board and staff of the Washington, DC-based WACA as well as representatives from Alaska, California, Kansas, Michigan, Montana, New York, Tennessee, Virginia and the UK led by WACA President Barbara Propes, was hosted by the Committee for International Trade Development of the Saudi Chambers of Commerce and Industry. The WACA delegation visited Jeddah, Riyadh and the Eastern Province between November 30 and December 8, 2007.

 Today we are pleased to share for your consideration an interview with Ambassador Mark Johnson, U.S. Foreign Service Retired, whose diplomatic service included posting as Deputy Chief of Mission to Kuwait. He served in that post in 1991 when the Government of Kuwait resided in exile in Taif, Saudi Arabia. He was the first U.S. diplomat to enter liberated Kuwait at the conclusion of Operation �Desert Storm.�

Ambassador Johnson was interviewed in Dammam, Saudi Arabia on December 6, 2007 by SUSRIS Editor Patrick Ryan who participated in the delegation visit. For more on the WACA Leadership Delegation visit check the SUSRIS Special Section.

US-Saudi Relations: Never More Important
A Conversation with Ambassador Mark Johnson

SUSRIS: Thank you for taking time to share your insights on US-Saudi relations and observations from your weeklong visit to the Kingdom. Let�s start with the overall health of ties between Americans and Saudi Arabians. President Bush�s meetings with King Abdullah, then Crown Prince, in Crawford in 2003 and 2005 did much to reinvigorate the government-to-government ties, as did the launch of a �Strategic Dialogue� between Washington and Riyadh. What�s your sense of where the relationship is at this point? 

Amb Mark Johnson: My sense -- coming back to the Kingdom after a long absence � is that never has the bilateral relationship with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia been more important. However, the paradox is that while it has never been more important there is, at least at the non-governmental level, a sense of disengagement. Now that�s not necessarily my judgment but it is the impression that we consistently received from our Saudi hosts from the very first meeting, �Where have you been?� We started off with a business group that hadn�t seen an American delegation for two years. 

When I say the relationship has never been more important I have in mind four key elements and I�ll discuss them in the order I think makes more sense given the different groups of people we have been seeing in the Kingdom. 

First of all, the trade, financial and commercial opportunities are enormous and we�re simply not participating in that game. This is a trader society as we were told in our meetings with international business people. Billions of dollars of opportunities and investments are out there and the United States is participating in only a fraction of that, really quite a minor share. The opportunities are one reason this is an important time in the relationship and at the same time one area where it falls short. 

Secondly you have to deal with energy reliability -- not necessarily total security or independence, that�s never going to happen. The basic math is not going to change in the U.S. energy consumption profile over the next 25 years. We are going to require 85% of our energy to come from hydrocarbons. Therefore the Kingdom is going to play an increasingly large role. It�s interesting to hear about their plans for expanding to 12 million barrels per day by 2009. That�s surely in their interest, but that is of great importance to western consumer economies. As long as the United States remains on a form of �oil dialysis� the Kingdom will be important, especially when there is only a 2 million barrels per day surplus capacity in the global energy market -- down almost two thirds from years past. Again Saudi Arabia is the key player in maintaining this security margin.

Thirdly, you have to talk about the American-Saudi partnership in the war on terror, the fight against extremists. My sense is that this part of the relationship is headed in the right direction, especially after the 2003-2004 attacks within the Kingdom, and should probably be even more robust.

The fourth area I�ve become convinced about, especially after travel and meetings in the Kingdom, is Saudi Arabia�s growing diplomatic role in the region. Two years ago all eyes looked toward Egypt as the central Arab player. I�ve been to Egypt many times, and it�s clear to me that Egypt has somewhat receded from that arena. 

On the other hand Saudi Arabia, in a way that I have not seen before, has stepped up to the plate. They have had a very active diplomacy with regard to challenges like Palestine � the troubles between Hamas and Fatah. They were sitting at the table in Annapolis with the Israeli Prime Minister. Lebanon -- we know that they are working very actively behind the scenes. 

So Saudi Arabia interestingly is becoming what Egypt was, that is, a player in the region that apparently talks to all parties. When I say talk, I don�t necessarily mean visibly or loudly, nor do I mean they are throwing their weight around. But I think on the basis of this trip I am more persuaded than ever that their role is really critical to the new dynamics in the region. That also means the perception of the threat from across the Gulf, namely Iran. 

So my bottom line is that this is a relationship that is very important to us, and I am not sure, based on what we�ve heard from our friends here, that it is being given the serious attention, at least in the non-governmental level on the American side. I�m less able to speak to the governmental level.

SUSRIS: We�ll talk more about regional defense and security issues but you mentioned Iran. What is the perception of the threat from the Kingdom�s perspective?

Johnson: That was made clear to us, albeit in nuanced terms at the Foreign Ministry. When somebody says they �look with concern,� or �remained concerned,� or �are concerned about somebody,� that�s usually a pretty good signal that they are more than just concerned, they are worried. 

SUSRIS: Can you expand on your comment about the lack of serious attention on the part of Americans, at least in the private sector?

Johnson: What we heard from our Saudi interlocutors is their perception that among Americans the Kingdom seems to be a difficult dangerous place to do business. They, the Americans, are not interested. There�s a bad image, a bad reputation. You can�t convince an American corporate boardroom to launch a major investment scheme in Saudi Arabia. 

The Saudis say that we are losing opportunities to participate in the �big boom.� I think they�re right. The numbers seem to suggest that they are right, but I don�t think that�s a long-term situation. We have to get over a few things but I think it is basically a cyclical pattern right now. 

You mentioned the Abdullah-Bush meetings at Crawford. It was no secret the relations were frosty a while ago and it is no secret the King has spoken out sharply against Iraq. The Chief of Staff of the Saudi armed forces told us our actions in Iraq were �ill advised.� But at the end of the day if Saudi Arabia becomes threatened in a major existential way the Saudis are not going to call NATO. They�re not going to call Japan. They�re not going to call Canada. They are going to call Washington. And Washington is going to respond, Washington is going to say, �What took you so long?�

So we have some bedrock elements to this relationship -- that go back over 60 years -- that have taken on a renewed importance in recent years. We need to reflect on that and act accordingly. 

SUSRIS: At the Saudi Arabian Ministry of Defense and Aviation you heard from the Chief of the General Staff. What was your impression of the relationship in the military sphere? 

Johnson: The military to military relationship at some levels and in some ways is on autopilot. It will endure given the volume of sales, the level of training, and the reliance on U.S. equipment for some of their major defense systems. We drove past an air defense installation which I was very interested to see adjacent to the oil fields. I�m assuming it was an American system which would be indicative of the continue reliance on US arms. 

What struck me, however, in talking with the Chief of the General Staff, General Saleh bin Ali Al-Mohayya, was not the traditional relationships and issues. What he talked about was really the irritations that have developed. There was the issue of being billed by the Pentagon for service charges for arms sales from American contractors and not knowing the real value of the contracts.

He expressed more irritation than I thought the military leadership would about America�s political stance in the region vis-�-vis Israel -- the double standard approach to nuclear weapons proliferation. It wasn�t the usual meeting. I�m used to Defense Ministry briefings being lavish PowerPoint presentations talking about the cooperation, the number of people being trained, all the good stuff. 

I left feeling a little curious about his presentation. It made me wonder how solid the relationship really was, and the answer is �I don�t know� because it wasn�t much more than a snapshot. But for a newcomer walking in after a long absence -- since Desert Storm days -- I found that to be of some concern to me. I don�t know if it should be of great concern but I think it didn�t play out the way I thought it would play out.

SUSRIS: Was there anything else that your antennae picked at the Foreign Ministry?

Johnson: I think what my antennae picked up was, number one, they�re going to be even more active in areas like Palestine. The Saudis are looking to us not to be just quote an honest broker unquote -- someone who sort of manages the sides. They want the United States to go in and do some heavy lifting, which means that they want the US to be a major player. 

The Saudis would be willing to support that. I didn�t pick up the same echoes about the bilateral relationship at the Foreign Ministry as I did with the Defense Ministry visit. I think our hosts said the things that we expected. The formal strategic dialogue mechanism seems a bit languid, it probably needs to be energized right now, but the point was made that the Saudi Foreign Minister and the US Secretary of State were getting plenty of time working together outside the formal dialogue process.

As for the recent peace conference in Annapolis, the Bush Administration certainly made a major push to get the Saudis to the table -- successfully, necessarily. It would not have been a disaster, but it would have been far short of even modest expectations if the Saudis did not go. The fact that you have the Saudis there as well as the Syrians and the other Arab League members -- that�s not nothing, that�s important. 

Bottom line at the Foreign Ministry -- I thought it was a good overall presentation. As I mentioned, it reaffirmed my view that the Saudis have some major concerns vis a vis the Iranians. It reaffirmed my impression that Annapolis had as much to do with the new regional security architecture as it did about the Palestinian situation. So in that sense it was very helpful to hear it. 

SUSRIS: You met many business people: Chambers of Commerce and Industry, the King Abdullah Economic City, the Committee on International Trade as well as government organizations dealing with business and economy. As a result of those many meetings and briefings what�s your take on all things business in the relationship.

Johnson: First of all you get what you always get. I recall going back to Egypt after an absence of 15 or so years. You walk into these meetings and you get the same consistent line that the U.S. is biased and unbalanced and heavily focused on Israel and then you get past that.

I think that�s part of the almost expected rhetoric that you get. I�m not saying that they don�t mean it, but it just seems to be an automatic response. Israel is like the licensed, safe grievance.

What we did hear was frequent references to major opportunities that are opening and there was lamenting that U.S. businesses, that American businesses aren�t responding as they think they should. 

I think it�s worth saying here the constant, constant, constant criticism of the U.S. visa policy. This is becoming the ultimate self-inflicted wound. This is what is killing the relationship. Now every senior Saudi private sector official has a horror story of a brother in law or a cousin or another family member who quote unquote has been humiliated in a visa line or immigration check. 

I must say having participated in three recent WACA [World Affairs Councils of America] leadership missions to this region -- Kuwait, Egypt and now Saudi Arabia -- there is much truth to that. There is a level of behavior that is really deeply offensive to our Arab friends. If they are really our friends, and they are, we ought to recognize that. We need to fix that. We need to figure out a way to correct it. We do need to get the younger generation of Saudis acquainted with the United States. In Montana, we have about 70 Saudis studying at our universities. 

Back to the business side, I think these are sharp traders and merchants, I do think it is somewhat akin to the security relationship where, at the end of the day, faced with a major existential threat they are going to turn to the U.S. I do think faced with these major opportunities and a desire to get going with the implementation of them, there has to be an American role in them. I think it is important what we bring to the table in terms of technology, our ability to transfer technology. It is just as we saw at Aramco facilities, which you know was started in the desert and flourished. I think that counts a lot with the Saudis. 

The Saudi business community has enduring partnerships and relationships in the United States that have gone back decades, or many years in most cases. I don�t think they are going to necessarily, in the long term, go elsewhere. However, we are sure making it easy for them at this point. We are sure giving them ample opportunity to go to Chinese sources, or Asian sources on many of these deals.

We heard from the Ministry of Water and Electricity, to mention just one ministry, that there was $50 billion of business opportunities. I fear that American business has yet to wake up to these opportunities. I wonder, in fact, how apparent it is in senior levels of American business just how aggressive and how rapid the Saudi expansion program is. I wasn�t aware of it when I came here. For example, the King Abdullah Economic City at Rabigh � a project of this magnitude, $27 billion, a new city the size of Washington D.C.

SUSRIS: The trade mission from Saudi Arabia to the United States two years ago was the largest business delegation the Kingdom ever sent. The presentations featured around $623 billion in market opportunities through the year 2020 but the turnout did not seem to match the dimensions of the mission or the prospects for doing business. What should we make of disconnects like that?

Johnson: Two years ago was that much closer to 9-11 and some of the imagery and some of the psychology and some of the scare rhetoric that seemed to exist. I can�t imagine that the breadth and depth of this relationship, the business connections, can�t be resurrected. I hope it will be in the very near future, and I say this as someone who really worked hard on commercial and trade and investment opportunities in the course of my career. But for now it�s the most troubling aspect for me.

SUSRIS: The Saudi Arabians you met on the WACA delegation know America. Many are American trained. They want to send their children to the United States for an American education. They want to work with American business people. Is that the impression you received?

Johnson: Absolutely, I didn�t see anything but that. They�re all proud of their relationships and friendships. They all are familiar with the technology. Minister after minister, executive director after executive director told us about going to the University of Kansas, going the University of Southern California. 

Their relationship with America and Americans -- it�s something that is a very powerful force. I think it�s more sorrow rather than anger in some ways that has produced this situation. I think they are confused about what they are hearing from Washington, and they are confused by what they are not hearing from the American business community. I was checking my notes earlier in the day and there was a very good quote about American business: �Where have you gone?� 

I think that can be corrected and I hope out of this mission we can produce better people to people contacts, and possibly even some business arrangements from some of our members. 

SUSRIS: Can you comment on the hot button issues in the news like the case of the so-called �Qatif girl� � the women sentenced by a Saudi court after she was gang raped? What�s your perception on how that is playing out in the Kingdom and its effect on the relationship?

Johnson: There�s really a broader question there and it is one I can�t answer because there is another segment of the society that we did not see, had no contact with and, at least for me, I am less well aware of it. It is the traditional conservative religious elements of the Kingdom. They are said to be powerful and I believe that to be true. We�ve been told that the King has to keep a kind of synchronized distance just far enough ahead of the people -- not too far ahead certainly not behind. 

So I can�t really address that element, that aspect of society. When you ask me to talk about the rape case, I think the American response has actually been beneficial. I think the Saudis might deny that, but President Bush�s comments along the lines of �What if it was my daughter?� puts it in a value system that the Saudis respect -- the family. 

We have common values on family and justice and I think those Saudis that want to think through this realize that that�s where we are coming from. Now there are those Americans that are using this to say the Saudis are a bunch of heathens and not worthy of any sort of dealings and after all didn�t they support terrorism, fifteen of the hijackers, and so forth. You really can�t deal with that in any kind of a rational way. 

Frankly, I don�t think it is unhelpful to have that kind of reaction the President gave. I think that can ultimately be beneficial even though countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt with their human rights problems would ever admit it. Nevertheless it gives the reformers some hope that we are paying attention and this is of concern. That said, there remains this group in Saudi society and outside observers who are a whole lot smarter than I, and who have called it the �Impenetrable Kingdom.� You know, I am beginning to realize why they say that.

SUSRIS: Your itinerary included meetings with businesswomen and visits to women�s colleges. What did you learn about the progress women are making in the Kingdom? Did what you saw reinforce or challenge conventional wisdom of women in Saudi Arabia?

Johnson: This was probably one of the most important aspects of the trip that gave us a first hand look into what is really happening. I have to say, I came away impressed. 

For instance we walked into a board meeting that was dominated by women -- women sitting at a table, there was no difference. They were full participants. They were outspoken and they made good points about dealing with the United States, dealing with business and so forth. 

We went to two private education institutions in Jeddah focusing on women. At our first visit � it was Effat College -- the young women were working on computer motherboards, they were working in biology labs, they had engineering formulas on the blackboards. I think they are showing that �A,� being Muslim doesn�t mean you can�t embrace science, and �B,� women can embrace science. 

From my own experiences around the Muslim world in Africa and the Middle East I think this is tapping into a very powerful force -- not in the sense of creating equal political opportunities, and it won�t be, but this is Saudi Arabia. 

The bottom line here was that I was quite taken by what is happening. We saw it in a couple of major institutions, certainly in Saudi Aramco, which may be atypical, but it seemed to me that women played a completely normal role. 

At the General Investment Authority, SAGIA, one of the premier Saudi institutions, we were told that about 20% of the workforce are women. The Governor of SAGIA, Amr Dabbagh, said he hoped to get up to 50% in the near future. He realizes that he needs that talent in his organization. 

I think that�s becoming more and more the conventional thinking along that line, the modernized elite segment of Saudi society. So I don�t want to repeat myself, but again that was probably for me the most impressive part of this visit -- to see that reality.

SUSRIS: The WACA leadership delegation had ten members, seven were first time visitors to the Kingdom. What was the general response of the group to what they saw?

Johnson: First and foremost every member had a chance to experience what those of us who have been in the Arab world have always seen and I don�t think we ever take it for granted. That is the fabulous hospitality, the warmth and generosity of our Saudi hosts. I always tell American audiences that the hospitality in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia -- it�s not generous, it�s not lavish, it�s really overwhelming. I hope that all members of our group felt the same way, and that would be from both the men and the women of the delegation. 

For a first time visitor you would have to come away impressed with the capability of the people we met. One member of our group mentioned that they were surprised at the excellent level of English. That may sound rather condescending, but if you have been around in other Arab countries � well, I was impressed. 

The people we met were very sharp people. They are world-class business leaders. They really are on top of the technology issues, second to none. They know what�s going on.

So I think on balance every member came away with many more checkmarks on the positive side than on the negative side. It would probably have been impossible to have a discussion on religious issues or political issues. Our visit didn�t lend itself to that, so you have to reserve judgment on those topics. What we saw, though, will lead people to come away favorably impressed. More importantly they will come away with an eagerness to tell what they have seen to the WACA member councils around the United States.

SUSRIS: Any last thoughts on your week in Saudi Arabia?

Johnson: I am glad I came. I had not been in the Kingdom for a long time, since I was in Taif with the Kuwaiti Government during Desert Storm. It�s very interesting to compare and contrast our experiences in Saudi Arabia with other countries in the region.

 What I saw this week validated for me a perception that I have been developing going back to the spring of this year. It is that Saudi Arabia, for whatever reasons, I can�t speculate, but for whatever reasons Saudi Arabia is entering the world arena, or the regional arena, as a big time player. 

It may not come across as a fair statement. The Saudis would probably argue that they have always been a �player.� However, as a visible, articulate player in a way that commands attention and gives them something they may have felt they have lacked at times -- respect from Washington. Perhaps to put it in a slightly different light, being taken for granted. 

We have gone through the Palestinian-Israeli crisis all these many years, and few roads led to Riyadh. Secretary of State after Secretary of State flew over the Kingdom on route to Cairo or Damascus. And while they did not say it on this mission -- we were not told it directly -- but I think there has been some resentment about that. So the main lesson for me is it validates what I thought was a really much more robust, energetic, vigorous Saudi diplomacy. 

SUSRIS: Thank you for sharing your perspectives on US-Saudi relations and your experiences traveling in the Kingdom.

Johnson: It was my pleasure.

About Ambassador Mark Johnson

Executive Director, Montana World Affairs Council. Missoula, Montana

Amb. Mark Johnson was a career foreign service officer, serving as Ambassador to Senegal, as Deputy Inspector General of the State Department, Deputy Chief of Mission in Kuwait in 1991, and as Deputy Chief of Mission in Cairo, Egypt. Amb. Johnson served in Kenya, Burkina Faso, and the Office of Iranian Affairs during the hostage crisis. Currently he is the Mansfield Adjunct Professor at the Maureen and Mike Mansfield Center at the University of Montana.

About the World Affairs Councils of America

The mission of the World Affairs Councils of America is to: empower citizens to participate in the national debate on world affairs; build citizen support for American engagement in the world; stimulate communities to interact effectively in the global economy; help people relate their local concerns to global issues; improve international education locally, nationally, and internationally; foster international interests in America's young people; build alliances with counterpart organizations locally, nationally, and internationally; and increase council professionalism by disseminating best practices 

Related Info:

• SUSRIS Special Section - WACA Leadership Mission to Saudi Arabia

• World Affairs Councils of America

• World Affairs Council of Montana